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so you mean prejudice is racism?

naive Wrote:Ok,  "racial prejudice or discrimination". Saying that most koreans love starcraft is a racial prejudice based on your limited experience, when in fact <50% of koreans have ever even played starcraft. Prejudice isn't always negative, whenever prejudices are based on race they are racism.

Prejudice: any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

Do I need to define preconceived for you too?

The first definition is probably the most applicable.

But going by the 2nd.

Racial prejudice is different than just prejudice. Taking one word out adds a different meaning. In this context racial prejudice correlates more to racial discrimination rather than the definition of prejudice.

Quote:The Oxford English Dictionary defines racism as the "belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races" and the expression of such prejudice,[9][10] while the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines it as a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority or inferiority of a particular racial group, and alternatively that it is also the prejudice based on such a belief.

The two definitions from these dictionary link racial prejudice to the part 1 of the definition. It's important not to take the words out of the context of the definition since it leads to a different definition. The way I read it, is that it's not an and statement but rather an also statement. While prejudice is a factor of racism, the simple presence of this does not insinuate racism. One must actively use the prejudice to discriminate, humiliate, etc... for the statement to be considered racist.

Poor logic/reasoning simply isn't enough for prejudice to be considered racist. You must use this prejudice for something else.

I don't think you could even apply racial discrimination to this situation. He wasn't discriminating against Koreans saying that they were the only one's allowed to play the game. So, it doesn't really speak for itself. Again, he just made a simple generalization that is accepted by others to be true. Generalization =/= Racism in this situation, since it, again, does not go to humiliate, degrade, etc.

I feel like we're going to have to agree to disagree, again. I do not believe that any further argument will be able to convince me that those statements were blatantly racist by Rival that you quoted. And I do not believe any of my arguments will be able to convince you. For my time, and yours, I feel like this is the best choice. (And for my sleep)

I do feel as if the definition and more importantly the legal definition as the US Courts at least treat it, are growing apart in difference. I do not agree with the recent growth of the usage of "That's racist", especially in many situations it really wasn't (IE on various college campuses, high school campuses, and work order). I feel as it's important to take a step back and realize that in some cases, it really isn't.

Just as an FYI: This isn't the thing I had a problem with, it was just like a meh for me, it's that first comment you made in part jest and part to prove your point about the Indian women. I find that pretty offensive not only to my homosexual friends that I converse with on a daily basis either at work or on campus, but to women.

We're also a bit off-topic off the thread, but then again it's the Flamez section anyway.

That and the fact that I'm flippin exhausted and it's 5'o clock in the morning.

I could care less if I offend any homosexuals or anybody, i respect and am respected by numerous gay folk whom I offend regularly. Gay men dating women is a selfish experiment that may hurt women any way to you look at it. Presuming from Rivals claim that he is gay from birth and it is not a choice.. from my perspective, either it wasn't serious relationship worth mentioning or he did it just for the pretend veil of being able to say "I'm not racist".

Tell me if you deny any of these definitions.

Racism Defined: Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.
Prejudice Defined: Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience.
preconceived defined: Formed before having the evidence for its truth or usefulness.

and deny these assumptions:
Koreans are a race.
the generalization that "most koreans love starcraft" is a preconceived opinion (no evidence) about a race


If not, then a preconceived opinion about koreans regarging starcraft logically can be defined as racism.

Wow ! What happened to our relationship? Please be calm.

Rival gay?

naive Wrote:I could care less if I offend any homosexuals or anybody, i respect and am respected by numerous gay folk whom I offend regularly. Gay men dating women is a selfish experiment that may hurt women any way to you look at it. Presuming from Rivals claim that he is gay from birth and it is not a choice.. from my perspective, either it wasn't serious relationship worth mentioning or he did it just for the pretend veil of being able to say "I'm not racist".

Tell me if you deny any of these definitions.

Racism Defined: Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.
Prejudice Defined: Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience.
preconceived defined: Formed before having the evidence for its truth or usefulness.

and deny these assumptions:
Koreans are a race.
the generalization that "most koreans love starcraft" is a preconceived opinion (no evidence) about a race


If not, then a preconceived opinion about koreans regarging starcraft logically can be defined as racism.

Yep. Disagree.

As I stated before, the accepted definition of racism requires a crucial factor that is not present in Rival's statement.

Quote:Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination.

I don't agree with your definition of racism as it's much more broad, not specific and gives room for grey areas. I'm regarding the definition of racism akin to the strict scrutiny method used by the Supreme Court. If it fails any part of the definition then it cannot be regarded as such.

The definition of racism that I'm holding it to is one that is accepted by others and is not a self-definition.

I also find fault with your definition of preconceived

Quote:Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience.

With this definition, Rival's experience is that most Korean play SC2. It's too broad and not specific as in your racism definition. Rival's experience is his evidence in this matter, it's one that may not be true but it's his experience.

The difference in our opinion is based on the definition of racism, you're using a different definition from me and that is a crucial aspect. I believe that your definition of racism is often utilized by others who seek to claim racism in situations that there are not. I pull mine from other sources and I believe them to be truthful.

Quote:I could care less if I offend any homosexuals or anybody, i respect and am respected by numerous gay folk whom I offend regularly. Gay men dating women is a selfish experiment that may hurt women any way to you look at it. Presuming from Rivals claim that he is gay from birth and it is not a choice.. from my perspective, either it wasn't serious relationship worth mentioning or he did it just for the pretend veil of being able to say "I'm not racist".

You're respected by numerous gay folk who you offend regularly?

And that's a fucking bullshit comment.

I don't exactly remember if Rival claims he was gay from birth. I believe that was someone else. Either way, are you saying that gay people don't have a chance to be bi-sexual? Are these people merely selfish assholes?

Are they not afforded the opportunity to see if they are truly gay? We can't confirm the situation, but what happens if she was cool with him being gay?

I find it hard to believe to find truth in your statement. If you're truly respected by numerous gay folk but have the attitude that them dating women is a selfish experiment... Seems like your belief is that they only should date men and stick that way. They are not allowed to experiment with their sexuality in different ways as afforded to straight people.

Well, this was an interesting read when I woke up. I just want to close this thread with a few points :

- Ruplayer has been outed as someone who is prejudiced against gay people. I don't think he deserves to be an admin. He's biased against people of a different sexuality, and I think he should be removed from the staff. This makes sense as to why he's always disliked me, and disliked AA (because we'd always make jokes about man love and stuff like that). Everyone that was admin at the time I was, you all know how he'd react to my suggestions without any reason. Now we know the reason.


- Again, it's not the thing of him not being able to correctly form sentences that annoyed me. It's the fact that he told me that I should try and learn another language before I judged him. I have learnt a language, and that language is English. What annoyed me most was that the way he told me to "learn another language" was in such bad grammatical standing that it made me more annoyed than the initial statement would. I also speak German, so I have had the difficulty of learning another language.


- To Naive, in response to your moronic claim that I tricked an Indian girl into dating me because I knew I was gay and I hate Indians (or whatever dumb conclusion you came to), maybe you should read a little about it first. You obviously have no fucking clue as to what's going on in the world, and you really need to pause and think about what you're writing, because that seriously offended me.


- I'm not a racist. I think I already said that several times. I don't know how I could be racist when I lived with a Jamaican woman for 12 years, but maybe I just didn't know I was racist until yesterday. Thanks for awakening my xenophobia, I'm going to go out lynching now. Sure, the things I said were stereotyped, but as Joker has already explained, they are accurate stereotypes. Just replace every time I said "majority" with "a lot of", and maybe that will sound better. I probably shouldn't have used the word "majority".


But yeah, mainly I think that Ruplayer should be removed from the staff for this blatant prejudice which interrupted a lot of my suggestions when I was a staff member, and for his continued prejudice against me when I left the staff. I expect Bison to either reply back here, message me on Steam or PM me, because I'm real serious about this.

Oh, stfu already, it's a flame thread. I don't care about gay people, I just pass them. You're cheater-gay-racist, and was smart enough to tell "go fuck yourself" to someone who runs this place, now you expect them to follow your orders. I was admin here before you and after you, and when it comes to stuff on the server I do my job. If we knew that you will release admin board information, that you have a cheating history and going to cheat while you have admin we would have never voted you in. You're mistake.

joker8baller Wrote:

naive Wrote:I could care less if I offend any homosexuals or anybody, i respect and am respected by numerous gay folk whom I offend regularly. Gay men dating women is a selfish experiment that may hurt women any way to you look at it. Presuming from Rivals claim that he is gay from birth and it is not a choice.. from my perspective, either it wasn't serious relationship worth mentioning or he did it just for the pretend veil of being able to say "I'm not racist".

Tell me if you deny any of these definitions.

Racism Defined: Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.
Prejudice Defined: Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience.
preconceived defined: Formed before having the evidence for its truth or usefulness.

and deny these assumptions:
Koreans are a race.
the generalization that "most koreans love starcraft" is a preconceived opinion (no evidence) about a race


If not, then a preconceived opinion about koreans regarging starcraft logically can be defined as racism.

Yep. Disagree.

As I stated before, the accepted definition of racism requires a crucial factor that is not present in Rival's statement.

Quote:Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination.

I don't agree with your definition of racism as it's much more broad, not specific and gives room for grey areas. I'm regarding the definition of racism akin to the strict scrutiny method used by the Supreme Court. If it fails any part of the definition then it cannot be regarded as such.

The definition of racism that I'm holding it to is one that is accepted by others and is not a self-definition.

I also find fault with your definition of preconceived

Quote:Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience.

With this definition, Rival's experience is that most Korean play SC2. It's too broad and not specific as in your racism definition. Rival's experience is his evidence in this matter, it's one that may not be true but it's his experience.

The difference in our opinion is based on the definition of racism, you're using a different definition from me and that is a crucial aspect. I believe that your definition of racism is often utilized by others who seek to claim racism in situations that there are not. I pull mine from other sources and I believe them to be truthful.

Quote:I could care less if I offend any homosexuals or anybody, i respect and am respected by numerous gay folk whom I offend regularly. Gay men dating women is a selfish experiment that may hurt women any way to you look at it. Presuming from Rivals claim that he is gay from birth and it is not a choice.. from my perspective, either it wasn't serious relationship worth mentioning or he did it just for the pretend veil of being able to say "I'm not racist".

You're respected by numerous gay folk who you offend regularly?

And that's a fucking bullshit comment.

I don't exactly remember if Rival claims he was gay from birth. I believe that was someone else. Either way, are you saying that gay people don't have a chance to be bi-sexual? Are these people merely selfish assholes?

Are they not afforded the opportunity to see if they are truly gay? We can't confirm the situation, but what happens if she was cool with him being gay?

I find it hard to believe to find truth in your statement. If you're truly respected by numerous gay folk but have the attitude that them dating women is a selfish experiment... Seems like your belief is that they only should date men and stick that way. They are not allowed to experiment with their sexuality in different ways as afforded to straight people.

Disclaimer: I was drunk as shit last night.

Well, if you are declining the validity of definitions in the Merriam-Webster dictionary then that's as far as I can go in a logical argument with you as you are denying established definitions.  If the dictionary is too controversial in its definition of racism for you, I think you have many other issues to contend with before you continue debating me.

Rivals experience isn't with Koreans as a race, and is a perfect example of acceptable racism. Your problem I believe is that you think something has to be inherently negative to be racist, which is not the case. His experience is with a small group of individuals who happened to be Korean. Extrapolating out to the entire Korean race is just poor logic and not true. If his judgements are not based on logic, yet are applied to the Korean race then it is a broad assumption about a race based on a perception with no evidence. I have experience looking at the moon through a telescope, but that does not give me the evidence or experience necessary to say it is made of cheese. Saying Koreans love starcraft is essentially the same statement as saying that asians are good at math (a common example of a racist stereotype).

I'm friends with transsexuals, gays, straights, south koreans, everyone, and I will viciously attack and offend people about what I believe them to be wrong about, its the fact that learning normally happens through this process for both of us in which the mutual respect comes in. Claiming for something to be selfish does not necessarily make it wrong, it's selfish for me to ask my girlfriend to give me head but I do that anyways. I was too drunk to iterate this point well last night but saying 'im not racist i dated an indian' is about as valid of a statement as 'im not gay i dated a girl'. Plenty of slave owners 'dated' their slaves, where they not racist? In terms of the gayness hurting the partner in a perceived heterosexual relationship, that is very real. I know a straight male who's girl turned lesbian, and a gay male whos partner decided he was really straight. Both knew of the others potential to be homosexual/heterosexual prior but were still completely devastated by the incidents... its psychology. In this case however, I was too drunk to make a good joke or point so it ended up somewhere else. 

If you want to go only against what a US Court could convict me for, then logically speaking me speaking the statement "All British people should be clubbed to death at birth" would not be racism as no actual actions were taken thus no crime committed. Your logic is flawed.

ruplayer Wrote:Oh, stfu already, it's a flame thread. I don't care about gay people, I just pass them. You're cheater-gay-racist, and was smart enough to tell "go fuck yourself" to someone who runs this place, now you expect them to follow your orders. I was admin here before you and after you, and when it comes to stuff on the server I do my job. If we knew that you will release admin board information, that you have a cheating history and going to cheat while you have admin we would have never voted you in. You're mistake.

- Shut the fuck up

- I didnt release information from the admin board.

- I had hacked in the past, so what? I bet at least half of the admins have hacked on CS:S before (or 1.6).

- I didn't cheat while I had admin.

- You just released information on how the admin process works. Good job.

- We've already been through this. I'm not a racist. I don't even particularly hate Russians, I just hate you, and you happen to be Russian.



Also I'm not even going to respond to anything Naive has said. He's insulted me for the last time, so I'm just going to ignore him now. I read his last reply and there was no form of apology in there, so he can fuck off with Ruplayer.

You guys might be admins, but you're server admins. Since I don't play on WarLords servers any more, you have literally no authority over me, so I really couldn't care less what you think. I'm not going to be victimised on the forums by some homophobic kid and an idiot who thinks that dating an Indian girl is racism.