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I don't argue with people about their faith.  Live and let live.  Just saying what I believe. 

im a vampire...try n explain that  8)

Cortex Wrote:im a vampire...try n explain that  8)

Cortex Wrote:im a vampire...try n explain that  8)

I vant to suck yer blood!

leo Wrote:

JackMonroe Wrote:I see it as the complete opposite of random.  The universe is so vast and time infinite.  It would be more improbable for things like this not to occur at some place and time.  New unheard things are happening all around us even if we don't or can't see it, be it beyond our solar system or beyond our comprehension.  The great artist is time and space.  The masterpiece is the universe.

I will say that until science tells us where all this potential came from, that it's my belief that it's the result of a Prime Mover.

So assuming that the potential had to start somewhere, why does it have to be God? And why is God immune from having to be created?

If we are going to be consistent with the notion "that something cannot come from nothing", God must have also been created (if God exists). But God's creator would have had to be created also, and so on, into infinity.

But there's another possibility, which is that the universe just always existed (at least some parts of it).

I like that idea.

Or if you're interesting in the first mover idea, maybe some things were just always moving.


;D

silly Wrote:

leo Wrote:

JackMonroe Wrote:I see it as the complete opposite of random.  The universe is so vast and time infinite.  It would be more improbable for things like this not to occur at some place and time.  New unheard things are happening all around us even if we don't or can't see it, be it beyond our solar system or beyond our comprehension.  The great artist is time and space.  The masterpiece is the universe.

I will say that until science tells us where all this potential came from, that it's my belief that it's the result of a Prime Mover.

So assuming that the potential had to start somewhere, why does it have to be God? And why is God immune from having to be created?

If we are going to be consistent with the notion "that something cannot come from nothing", God must have also been created (if God exists). But God's creator would have had to be created also, and so on, into infinity.

But there's another possibility, which is that the universe just always existed (at least some parts of it).

I like that idea.

Or if you're interesting in the first mover idea, maybe some things were just always moving.

Good point. It's very hard for us humans to imagine that.

A lot of scientists say the Big Bang was the beginning of time.
So humans try to comprehend: "was there no time before the Big Bang?".

Another thing they wonder about: "how did the universe look before the Big Bang?". Just a dense ball of crap? Or was there nothing? What caused the existence of the universe?

It's normal that humans ask these questions because we grew up in a world with time and causality. Maybe the universe has always existed (in some form) but it's really hard for us to imagine.

I've thought about these things as well, but in the end it doesn't really matter to me. Suppose the universe was created by a god. Do I owe him anything, am I supposed to live by his rules (what rules?) ?

Naah. It has no effect on our lives.

George, Of The Jungle Wrote:

silly Wrote:

leo Wrote:

JackMonroe Wrote:I see it as the complete opposite of random.  The universe is so vast and time infinite.  It would be more improbable for things like this not to occur at some place and time.  New unheard things are happening all around us even if we don't or can't see it, be it beyond our solar system or beyond our comprehension.  The great artist is time and space.  The masterpiece is the universe.

I will say that until science tells us where all this potential came from, that it's my belief that it's the result of a Prime Mover.

So assuming that the potential had to start somewhere, why does it have to be God? And why is God immune from having to be created?

If we are going to be consistent with the notion "that something cannot come from nothing", God must have also been created (if God exists). But God's creator would have had to be created also, and so on, into infinity.

But there's another possibility, which is that the universe just always existed (at least some parts of it).

I like that idea.

Or if you're interesting in the first mover idea, maybe some things were just always moving.

Good point. It's very hard for us humans to imagine that.

A lot of scientists say the Big Bang was the beginning of time.
So humans try to comprehend: "was there no time before the Big Bang?".

Another thing they wonder about: "how did the universe look before the Big Bang?". Just a dense ball of crap? Or was there nothing? What caused the existence of the universe?

It's normal that humans ask these questions because we grew up in a world with time and causality. Maybe the universe has always existed (in some form) but it's really hard for us to imagine.

Haha, you've just reminded me of this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QI3Vg0kpYEI've [/youtube]

George, Of The Jungle Wrote:thought about these things as well, but in the end it doesn't really matter to me. Suppose the universe was created by a god. Do I owe him anything, am I supposed to live by his rules (what rules?) ?

Naah. It has no effect on our lives.

http://you-win-the-internet.com/?n=George, Of The Jungle

I'm pretty much with Monroe. If there is infinite time, and infinite space literally all possibilities are inevitable.

I personally believe in some form of higher power, but I reject most institutionalized religion as I view organized religious worship mostly as an artifact of past culture, a tool used to control people and manipulate culture from the top down. Throughout looking at known history and the stories within the bible itself, one of the first things you should learn is forces will manipulate information to control other people. If the god of Abraham really was around 2,000-6,000 years ago heavily interacting with people through various means, I would in no way shape or form trust the known information surrounding those events these days. Even if it *did* happen, the evidence of data manipulation is every where. The bible as most Christians know it wasn't written by divine prophets, it was compiled by a fucking Atheist dictator (constantine).


In terms of relevence to silly's original post though, check this out.

http://www.boxcar2d.com/

It uses a genetic algorithm to design a car, watch it for a few days and see it evolve by random chances. It's slick as shit. You will end up with something that seems like someone MUST have designed it with great care and expertise, but nope it could have ended up as anything and was all based on chance.

silly Wrote:So assuming that the potential had to start somewhere

I can't conceive of it any other way. I'm sure that has something to do with the limits of this monkey brain of mine. XD

silly Wrote:why does it have to be God?

It doesn't have to be. Like I said, my general belief is that it was a prime mover. Whether the prime mover was the Christian deity or not, I can't say for certain, but that's what I like to believe. I'm certainly not typical in my concept of God from Christian standpoint though.

silly Wrote:And why is God immune from having to be created?

I didn't mention immunity. Personally, I think God was created at the time the universe(s) was created.

silly Wrote:If we are going to be consistent with the notion "that something cannot come from nothing", God must have also been created (if God exists). But God's creator would have had to be created also, and so on, into infinity.

This is where the concept of omnipotence comes from and such. One would posit that if God is omnipotent, the creation of itself is not beyond it's own ability.

silly Wrote:But there's another possibility, which is that the universe just always existed (at least some parts of it).

I like that idea.

I'm not sure. It's possible though. I think that is something that we can only know for sure through mathematics and observance of natural phenomena. Relativity is a bitch.

silly Wrote:Or if you're interesting in the first mover idea, maybe some things were just always moving.

Since everything in the universe is moving, I'd say that's a safe bet. Movement typically seems to be a repercussion of causality though, which leads me back to something initially causing everything to explode like it has. XD

silly Wrote:

Yes. Yes we will. ;D

I had a response to everyone else, but the fucking forums went down and I lost almost the entire thing cause of it. I spent a good amount of time typing that out too > .

Anyway, I'd like to see references on what you were saying about Constantine so I can read up on that. From what I understand, he was a convert to Christianity.

There are a lot of different sources about the influence of Constantine on the bible, but essentially he formed the council of Nicaea which selected which of the numerous books would be included in the canon of the bible. It wasn't until the council of Nicaea that Christians began unilaterally worshiping Jesus Christ as god. They chose books that portrayed him in the way that they decided, and other books were put under lock and key or possibly destroyed. The council of Nicaea essentially decided which books and testimony would be considered as valid, and all others were considered to be written by false authors (lots of controversial opinions, all claim divine influence). If you're a Christian, you probably know the Nicene creed, this was created by Constantine's nicaea council and was created in order to further establish Jesus Christ as being the same as god.

  There is controversy over whether or not Constantine was an actual convert but he is widely regarded as having only used religion for political reasons. His religious activities were a response to the political climate of the time, as there were many people from many religions all arguing with each other and dividing the Roman empire. Christians were the least adaptable as the constant persecution of them until Constantine's reign proved, so pagan religions were incorporated into Christianity as opposed to vice versa (saturnalia became christmas, etc).

I don't know of any definitive unbiased sources that touch on everything, here is one that reflects a lot of information I have come across of Constantine though. http://www.thinkatheist.com/notes/Council_of_Nicea


Here's a less biased source for some more info: http://atheism.about.com/library/glossa ... antine.htm