(wL) Forums

Mr.Tea, post: 69912, member: 1006 Wrote:That is only case when people are blindly rushing. Why are the better players usually alive after the first 30 seconds? Probably because they are thinking.

:p

Mr.Tea, post: 69910, member: 1006 Wrote:a through e only rewards slow playing if it works. It actually punishes them when they fail.

When they fail, they've wasted everyone's time. If they've succeeded, well, we can give them vouchers. They lose a lot, or they get some. If they want vouchers, they'll take the risk only when they know it'll succeed. If they want more vouchers they'll play the losing team. If it's 1 v 15 it's not worth trying unless you can win through objective (bomb/hostages). Notice that bomb plant is one of the exceptions. The reason being that bomb plant gives your team plant money (it's a valid tactic).

Mr.Tea, post: 69912, member: 1006 Wrote:If I am a T rushing on Office. I try to take the T-side of garage and hold it. Often times, when it works, I am alive beyond 30 secs. When people try to push through to CT spawn and Die after my warnings not to go into a kill zone. Camping is fulfilling the objectives and often times gets a W.

Office is a cs_ map and follows different objectives. This means it'll have a different set of rules and exceptions (generally involving hostages). If you were camping that long and they rescue hostages, expect to lose a lot of vouchers. o_O


Note: If the idea goes through, the plugin won't be implemented right away. I intend to have the plugin running silently not affecting awp limits for a few days in order to debug the tendency of certain conditions applying. The plugin will log a flag telling me which conditions applied for each player each round, while also keeping track of various information such as their voucher count so I can see whether it's positive or negative. I'll then correlate this data to gameme to see which sort of players are more likely to generate vouchers faster than others.

M. Bison, post: 69913, member: 359 Wrote::p

When they fail, they've wasted everyone's time. If they've succeeded, well, we can give them vouchers. They lose a lot, or they get some. If they want vouchers, they'll take the risk only when they know it'll succeed. If they want more vouchers they'll play the losing team. If it's 1 v 15 it's not worth trying unless you can win through objective (bomb/hostages). Notice that bomb plant is one of the exceptions. The reason being that bomb plant gives your team plant money (it's a valid tactic).

Office is a cs_ map and follows different objectives. This means it'll have a different set of rules and exceptions (generally involving hostages). If you were camping that long and they rescue hostages, expect to lose a lot of vouchers. o_O

Again, it is just punishing people that don't hold down there "w" key and run in the direction of the enemy. Many times, if it is a close round it is in the final 45 secs and 10 ppl are left alive. People play cautiously. People sometimes do last minute risky moves. Regardless, it will punish them.

Might as well make a plugin to cause the autobomb start if a player is stationary for too long. You shouldn't force people to play other styles of game play. Do not punish them for not listening to other teammates suggesting ridiculous "group think" strategies that fail.

At the very least, it's not very likely for an impatient rusher to camp too long with an awp. If they're getting the game moving, I don't really care what they're doing. The amount of awps in a round doesn't matter when most of them are no good and die fast.

Anyway, as I've stated, conditions can be taken into consideration, such as % of team alive at the time, etc. If it's a cs_ map and they're ct, they've waited that long, however, based on their position they wouldn't have enough time to rescue hostages if they pulled out knife and ran for it, then they obviously hesitated/baited/camped too long.

M. Bison, post: 69915, member: 359 Wrote:At the very least, it's not very likely for an impatient rusher to camp too long with an awp. If they're getting the game moving I don't really care what they're doing. Even if a lot of ppl have awps, if they're no good and die fast, it doesn't really matter.

Anyway, as I've stated, conditions can be taken into consideration, such as % of team alive at the time, etc. If it's a cs_ map and they're ct, and this player been alive late into the round, however, based on their position and time remaining, the player wouldn't actually have had enough time to rescue hostages if they pulled out knife and ran for it, then they obviously hesitated/baited/camped too long.

On hostage maps, the other objective is to kill all the terrorists. Remember that was your point in an Admin Abuse thread last year.....:p When there are a lot of good players online at a time, many times it takes it to the last 30 secs to get to the primary objective. That is, if the teams are balanced.

Mr.Tea, post: 69916, member: 1006 Wrote:On hostage maps, the other objective is to kill all the terrorists. Remember that was your point in an Admin Abuse thread last year.....:p When there are a lot of good players online at a time, many times it takes it to the last 30 secs to get to the primary objective. That is, if the teams are balanced.

That's exactly right. That's why the % of team alive can be taken into consideration along with other factors such as frequency of occurrence. If the amount of enemy players alive is substantial, the only way they could've been alive this long is if they were baiting or hiding. The primary objective is rescuing the hostages. The secondary objective is killing the terrorists. If you can't do the first, you try the latter. If it's not possible for either then you're wasting everyone's time by lurking.

Mr.Tea, post: 69916, member: 1006 Wrote:When there are a lot of good players online at a time, many times it takes it to the last 30 secs to get to the primary objective.

I calculated the amount of time needed to rescue hostages while running with a knife. The number is pretty substantial. It's something like 45-55 seconds while running with a knife from back of ct spawn. I wouldn't do it based on the game time for cs_ maps. Instead, it'd go based on their distance from hostages, distance among hostages, distance from rescue zone, etc. If they have no chance based on a distance x time calculation, or they're unable to kill the terrorists, they've failed the objective.

M. Bison, post: 69917, member: 359 Wrote:they make no attempt to rescue hostages

I know the times on each map to do it. It takes about 20 secs at Office from projector room to CT spwn. My point, especially since Vietcong got the time limit lowered, is that a lot of times it is down to the wire.

Most hostage maps it is killing the entire team at that point, i.e. last few T's are held up as last few cts try to make their move. A percentage can change really quickly. I have seen 8 vs 8 turn into a 8 vs 1 really quickly. I don't understand with a system that has been good for the last few years to radically change it. Its more likely to piss off the few people that do play it. That is why, they aren't playing BF3 or COD.

Please just mess with 24/7 D2 or at least leave one pop map untouched.

Mr.Tea, post: 69918, member: 1006 Wrote:I have seen 8 vs 8 turn into a 8 vs 1 really quickly.

I will be tracking the time in which every player died. If their ability for rescuing hostages was impossible, it'll then try seeing whether they were able to kill the enemy. If at no point in a certain amount of seconds prior to their death did they have a chance for victory, they've obviously failed the objective.

In my opinion the whole system will prevent players from buying awp only 1/3 times. For those who are not familiar with vauchers, it will look like a bug, random event. Instead of looking for such a complecated system, why not just getting rid of any restrictions?

Dr. Ruplayer, post: 69923, member: 9168 Wrote:In my opinion the whole system will prevent players from buying awp only 1/3 times. For those who are not familiar with vauchers, it will look like a bug, random event.

There will be a notice upon death displaying the change in vouchers and giving a flag for debugging purposes. People will know when they can buy an awp. Additionally, I can setup a page for people to input the flag in order to determine which circumstances resulted in the particular voucher change.

Dr. Ruplayer, post: 69923, member: 9168 Wrote:Instead of looking for such a complicated system, why not just getting rid of any restrictions?

Negative effects on server population. This was inadvertently tested a few times in the past. Additionally, I've already gotten numerous complaints about the amount of awpers directly following halftime on the current d2 system. Although nice (I like to awp too, you know ), unlimited awps won't work. At least not on our servers. We need a system which still limits awps quite a bit, but still gives other players an opportunity to use it when they need it. I'm willing to try any idea which can potentially fulfill the conditions which were outlined.

Anyway, I think the voucher system is interesting in that:
1). Distributed usage of awps. (resolves the flaws in the halftime limitation)
2). Allows players to save awps for another date. (a plus)
3). Allows players to use awps when they want them. (resolves the flaw of the prior limitation)

My idea is to write out the system and have it log for a few days. I'll then write a program for processing the file dump and correlating it with gameme data to spot factors which need re-adjustment. I'll reassess the weight of everything, log some more, and repeat until I think I find a balance.


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I'm going to have to think about the voucher system for a while in order to think out all the variables and factors. So I'm willing to give simpler restrictions which may work a try as I continue to think about the voucher system. What do you have in mind Mr. Tea? Do you want to try the old system but changed so that users can't purchase on the round after death/purchase or instead get reset money? Or what exactly? The old system is kind of silly because users who bind "buy awp" have a considerate advantage over users who try using the menu. I suppose not allowing them to purchase right after sort of remedies that by giving other players a chance. The old system seems like one which has been heavily abused by a select few. At this point, it basically limits only those who are unfamiliar with binds. :confused:

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Edit:
I've thought of something which reconciles the advantages of the old awp limitation and the newer d2 limitation. My idea is to use the old system except with a slight modification. The user will be able to purchase the awp right away on their first purchase per half. All subsequent purchases shall be denied for the first 3 seconds of the round. There will be notifications dispatched on round_start to inform users of awp availability. Additionally, when an awp is purchased by a teammate, there will be another notification dispatched to inform that an awp is no longer available for purchase. The purchase tracker shall be reset on halftime similar to how it's done in D2. If awpers are okay with this system, I'll implement it and consider the issue resolved.

Clarification:

Quote:2:39 PM - Riser: lol
2:39 PM - Riser: kinda hard to prcoess
2:39 PM - Riser: really tired
2:39 PM - Riser: youre saying that
2:39 PM - Riser: players will be allowed to buy awps as usual, meaning everyone?
2:39 PM - Riser: on round start**
2:40 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: the usual limitation
2:40 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: one awp
2:40 PM - Riser: per team or per person
2:40 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: per team
2:40 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: however, if you bought the awp once this half
2:40 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: you won't be able to purchase it right away
2:40 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: via bind or menu
2:40 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: for 3 seconds
2:40 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: so someone else can snatch it
2:40 PM - Riser: oh
2:40 PM - Riser: thats cool
2:40 PM - Riser: meaning, that ONLY by binds right?
2:40 PM - Riser: or both ways
2:41 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: both ways
2:41 PM - Riser: binds and buy menu
2:41 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: first 3 seconds of round
2:41 PM - Riser: hmm
2:41 PM - Riser: i guess its alright
2:41 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: that way slower ppl have a chance to get it
2:41 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: and the notifications will give ppl hope to buy it
2:41 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison:
2:41 PM - Riser: yeah its a good idea
2:41 PM - Brawl Bashin’ Bison: the ppl who've already had it can compete with others who did as well.

Note: The duration of freezetime is 3 seconds. This shouldn't interfere with a users ability to exit spawn.

I'm inclined to agree with Bison on the 3 second limitation on buying the awp after first purchase. It is A LOT better than the previous options put forth and, being an awp whore, I believe it would still work out most of the time for me