Why after waiting 40 min in sub list does a newcomer join and get in before me? Seems kind of ass backwards ... Either make it a list based on who was first or base on it on rws. Really makes it hard to want to play there when that happens.

[Jesse]

maybe it was a donor

[B]

Why after waiting 40 min in sub list does a newcomer join and get in before me? Seems kind of ass backwards ... Either make it a list based on who was first or base on it on rws. Really makes it hard to want to play there when that happens.

I seriously know what you mean .... i used to wait sometimes 1 or 2 full games if i wasnt starting pugs earlier in the day, because of my RWS. I know bison put that system to try to keep it balanced when people are leaving and give reasons to people to get donator status .... but at some point its ridiculous, especially if you take into account new players of which the 8.77 rws is very inaccurate either because its way too high or way too low (had adreN play here a couple days ago .... lets say 8.77 is 1/3 of that player).

That being said, if lets say griz leaves at 18 rws it makes total sense that the highest rws available in spec subs first to try to "save" the pug (Some times we are lucky and the balance it somewhat maintained).

Same for a lower RWS player leaving, it make sense for the lowest RWS available to sub in first without raping the pug balance.

Also, RWS priority is out of the window, the second the pug is over so usually you dont wait more then 1 game.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see three ways you can somewhat compensate/fix that on your end without bison changing anything :

- Instead of waiting 40 mins in spec with probably 2-4 other specs, leave and try to make an other pug with said specs.

- Get sub priority with the donator status .... When i donated it fixed 50% of my waiting in spec issues (i say 50% cause i was still waiting for lower RWS donators to sub first).

- If you are a complete nerd try to connect earlier and start the first pug or the 2nd pug server ... first arrived first served is true in that case.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only way i can see bison changing anything about it would be to not prioritize low RWS and new players over average players.

But maybe he wants new players to get in first so they get their first experience in CSS pugs fast instead of sitting in spec for over 10-15 mins. making them leave and probably losing said new player interest in (wL).

And also the balancing right now is raped by leavers, so if we change that on the long run pugs will turn out even more unbalanced on average, cause the rws stacks will be created faster in theory.

Have a good time on (wL)  

*insert whining in a dead game here*

Seriously though, there's 3 servers, why wait when you can start another? Invite some friends and get it organized. I love when I see 15/16 folks in a server and handful are whining and waiting when they could easily just get another.

[M. Bison]

The server makes a best effort to keep PUGs relatively fair (and presumably fun for everyone). Prior to the balancing done on subs, you'd have instances such as Griz RQing for [[CS]] Spider in early game, and the outcome of that pug would have been a stressful forgone conclusion. If you're annoyed by these efforts by the server, then a solution is readily available to you: it's called donating. For $5/mo, Donors get the "sub priority" benefit of at best skipping non-donors for balancing purposes or at worst first-come-first-serve (no risk of being skipped by latecomers).

We've already made a number of enhancements to aid in guesstimating wait time or at least making it more tolerable. This includes PUG state and score in server browser, in-game console output after using !subs which shows your sub position on a per-leaver basis (which means you could ask the desirable RQer whether they intend to leave any time soon), and the Steam bot which messages you on Steam (and Steam mobile) when you get in, which allows you to potentially watch YouTube videos or walk around and do other stuff (if you got Steam mobile). I'm not sure how this process could be improved any further.

Keep in mind the following:
A). The server goes by connect time, not when you used !sub command.
B). When you sub out, your "connect time" is reset. This makes it unlikely to instantly get subbed in again.
C). The balancing mechanism is partially disabled against donors. They will never be skipped by newly connected players (not even other donors), however, they may still skip over non-donors for balancing purposes.

Bison, I really appreciate all the work you've done to make estimating wait time easier. The score in server browser and now the console sub listing is awesome and super helpful.

Out of curiosity, how does the server determine what the sub order is? Is it purely based on RWS balance (outside of donor status), or does it also take into account wait times? It seems like an equitable sub algorithm should be a function that minimizes two different criteria, one being RWS differential and the other being wait time. In your implementation how did you weigh these two different criteria?

[M. Bison]

Not LO3? Or has a team reached 14+ wins? Then always subbed via first-in-first-out.

If it's gone LO3 and no team has 14+ wins, then it does the following:

The difference in RWS between both teams is computed using every available sub. If a subbing player results in an overall difference within +/- 3 RWS (previously 4), then it will sort them by connect time. If no subs fall within +/- 3 RWS, then it will pick whoever results in teams closest to +/- 3 RWS. For donors, it will revert to connect time if the balancer doesn't want them to skip.

This means a player with similar RWS usually replaces the outgoing player. This is not always the case, such as when the starting teams were already on the high or low end of +/- 3 RWS and multiple people have left. Additionally, unless you're a donor, this means RWS extremes will repeatedly be skipped during LO3 games when it's mostly their RWS opposites who are leaving.

[B]

Additionally, unless you're a donor, this means RWS extremes will repeatedly be skipped during LO3 games when it's mostly their RWS opposites who are leaving.

I can confirm that part for high rws extremes

But for the lower rws extremes you would need someone below 5 rws to be skipped during a whole pug !

Or an extremely high rws per team in said pug (75 vs 76), where a decent player leaves, then low rws will be skipped probably (very rarely happening)

Thank you everyone for your comments.

I understand your point Jesse "- Instead of waiting 40 mins in spec with probably 2-4 other specs, leave and try to make an other pug with said specs." but I have tried this a few times and usually I sit in the server trying to get those specs to join but they don't. Like right now whil'e I type this there are 17 in the other server and none of the specs will join me. 

Thanks Bison, I will think about that donation. 

Try to have more steam friends within the server, helps for starting new pugs